Curse

PieXags · Jun 14, 2005, 09:40 AM // 09:40

I really do like this idea. Then it would require only playing two characters or something, if you felt like changing their secondaries, to unlock all the skills for the professions. I do think that is a good idea. I've unlocked all the necro/mesmer/warrior skills with this one character, and I think if I create a character now, that I should be able to use those skills I unlocked without re-unlocking them when I change my secondary on THAT character. I like that idea.

And yeah, it's just about the feeling of accomplishment. People enjoy that sort of thing.

Numa Pompilius · Jun 14, 2005, 10:02 AM // 10:02

IMO having access to all skills in a class from lvl 1 _would_ ruin the PvE. Not only would the game be much easier, but if people think it's bad with twinked characters in the noob arenas now, wait till there's lvl3's not only wearing Draknor armor with superior runes, but also wielding elite skills.
On the other hand a UAS/UAR button when you create a PvP character has no effect on PvE at all.

ThundrGod · Jun 14, 2005, 10:29 AM // 10:29

This problem will sort itself out in time when more and more of the "It's great the way it is" crowd finishes the game and realizes they have to do it 3 more times to try out all their pvp options and the "pve only" crowd moves on to greener pastures.

triorph · Jun 14, 2005, 10:49 AM // 10:49

As for the whole having unlocked skills for all characters, i think its a good idea, although like others said, it would lessen PvE at lvl 1 or so, so why not let it only happen for ascended characters? thus making sure you're all level 20 and can't participate in another levels arena unfairly etc..

Mr. Matt · Jun 14, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02

I find PvP pointless and dull. The reason I don't play FPSs very much anymore is because of PvP being pointless and dull. I prefer PvE (why the hell do you give them such stupid names, anyway?!), primarily because I don't have to put up with morons, and also because I enjoy it far more -- because there is a story, however weak, and thus a point.

Therefore, PvPers can have whatever they want to cheapen their gameplay, as it won't bother me in the slightest. I just fail to see where the 'RPG' aspect is. It's weak enough in PvP as it is -- nobody is playing a role, nobody is pretending to play a role. 'Immersive atmosphere' my foot -- people drawing a penis on the map whilst talking about how they are going to 'pwn' the opposing team for no apparent reason isn't immersive in the slightest. Take away the character development and you have yet another dull, uneventful action game. 'RPG' tag not applicable. At least there's more skill to realistic shooters.

PieXags · Jun 14, 2005, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Alright here's what I think. I think the PvP characters should get the skills, the normal skills ---not elites, from the start. Because in high-lvl PvP everyone will have all the normal skills anyway (or at least they're easy for PvE players to get)

The elite skills should remain as-is, because they're just that "elite". And you should HAVE to go through some work to get them.

The runes aren't very difficult to get anyways, so I wouldn't be against giving PvP characters all the minor or major runes, because those aren't very important. The superior runes however, should remain as they are, unlockable through PvE. This way the PvP players don't have to go through PvE a million times to get the MAJORITY of their skills for PvP so they can still play with builds and what not. And the PvE people won't really care because all the normal skills are easy as HELL to unlock anyways. It's the elites and superiors AT LEAST that should remain how they are, because if you get EVERYTHING with the push of a button, that's just CS in 3rd person.

I do agree that PvP characters shouldn't have to create all the professions and get all their skills like that. I do believe however that there should be rewards for playing ALL of the game. No ONE half should have everything just "there" for them. I don't see a problem with PvP people having non-elites and non-superiors from the start. Because those are what all you'll really need to use any "builds" you want.

And the superiors and the elites BOTH sides will have to work for.

So you'd have

PvP: Normal Skills and Minor/Major runes from the start

PvE: By the time you get to the arenas where everyone participates, and start participating in the tombs and what not you'll have the normal skills easily, and the minor/major runes are available at the traders...and just not hard to find.

And both will have to go find their elites. The only problem with this is superior runes being available at traders. I just don't think it would be right to give the PvP characters the superiors as well because a sup vigor at the trader costs a fortune. I wish we could just take away the friggin' superior runes from the traders as a whole, but that's a no-go.

It is a puzzle to figure out...true enough. But UAS for PvP characters won't do anything but piss off PvE characters who've worked hard on their characters and also want to bring them into PvP. So go figure. We can either trust Anet will pull through, or go play another game. Other than that, we've no options.

Sekkira · Jun 14, 2005, 11:43 AM // 11:43

The problem is that PvP and PvE for this game go hand in hand. That's how ArenaNet designed it, that's what they intended. Everyone else wants PvE and PvP to be seperate games entirely. The game was really meant for the people who enjoy both PvP and PvE but done in such a way that you don't have to enjoy PvP or PvE. The problem is, PvEers have to 'grind' through PvE to get customisation. And it is a grind for them, because they're PvPers.

PvEers don't have to even get close to PvP at all to advance in any way in the game. That in itself is an unbalanced equation. UAU would tip the balance to be in the PvPers favour. You implement it across the board and the PvEers lose out. You implement it across the PvP aspect, and again, the PvEers lose out because they still have to unlock everything while the PvPers only have to sign into an account. And the ones that really get screwed over are the ones who enjoy both PvP and PvE.

As I said, at the moment, both areas are imbalanced, favouring the PvE side, screwing over the PvPers. UAU will tip the scales in a totally different way, favouring the PvPers and screwing over the PvEers. If ArenaNet is going to balance this out, they really are going to have to take it one step at a time as to not over tip the scales. We all know they are working on it and the process is going to be slow.

My advice for the PvPers that are annoyed with what it is now, put the game on the shelf for a bit. Go back to playing something else for a few weeks/months until they've ironed things out. For the rest who are going to stay, tell ArenaNet what needs to be done, what you liked and what you didn't like. Don't jump down their throat if they ****ed things up with one patch. Implementing this is probably going to lose a lot of people over this, we're not the real ones that will lose out, there are going to be a dramatic drop over how many buy the expansion which is supposed to keep them funded.

PieXags · Jun 14, 2005, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Well said, Sekkira. I couldn't have summed up the situation better myself.

The problem is known and is being worked out in some way that we are not yet aware of. It's a tough situation, so lets just see how it plays out.

King of Fools · Jun 14, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

the only mandatory pvp is the academy. be nice to have a quest that sends you to the arenas in ascalon, yak's bend etc...
not required but maybe a skill or even a weak weapon upgrade component for completing the quest.

Saerden · Jun 14, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Saerden, when people refer to a UAS/UAR they're typically referring to a button, UAS0, there's no need to complicate things by adding numbers to the end of it. That's called spending the time and effort to do it.

Some people here think that UAS will cheapen the game. Well it will do so in 3months when everyone has everything. Thats the point of my post. Unlocking all skills only takes time, NO EFFORT AT ALL. Runes and weapon components are different, because unIDs runes may no longer sell for gold after an economy crash (wether this happens or not, i cant tell). Then you need to farm though stuff, which requires skill (to get trade goods that are accepted currency, black dyes, sup vigors, whatever). Now you can farm stuff that drops gold (everyone can do it, no skill required), and buy everything you need (takes huge amounts of time though).

So whats the point of feeling rewarded for NO EFFORT AT ALL? I thought you guys like to work, not do something a bot could do (and does, just dont get caught...)
Being NR 10-50 on the other hand, takes lots of effort... noone seems to want that though.
UAS cant cheapen the PvE for everyone who does not need an unfair advantage in PvP. This excludes pure pve - they can buy sup. vigors, they dont care about unlock. They also dont care about unlocking Mesmer skills if they want to play a WA/MO. Because they dont need to fill the role of a Guild member who got sick 1 day before a major event. Who needs mesmers in PvE anyway

.
This also excludes PvE/Pvp players who pve with their cool looking characters in a noncompetitive environment. If they want to pvp in a competitive environment, they create a UASed PvP character.

The only argument that does not boil down to "unfair advantage" is the newb flood in pvp. Thats why most pvp players may consider a UAS15-20, because noone wants people asking "er what do you mean use skills? i can do somehing else besides attacking?" ... but pve is just a basic tutorial anyway, if you can believe the reports of current n00bs in pvp.

If you think that elite skills are elite... sigh, just sigh. They should have named the 15k armor elite instead.
One of the wost naming descisions ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Also, tell me this. If you played for 300h to unlock everything and got everything unlocked, just how many hours do you think you'll spend now that you've got everything? I'm pretty sure the numbers will then even out.

Do you think you could unlock everything within 300h? If yes: others wont be able to do it, or just wont do it (BF2 ...). Who cares about winning an unequal fight. I go roll play World of Gankcraft if a want that.

NiknudStunod · Jun 14, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

I havn't touched the game in over a month and don't see myself coming back anytime soon. We were told during BWE that skill would be more important then time spent. I spent over 100 hours trying to unlock all my runes and skills for a single character and I refuse to go back and try doing it again. I don't care that Anet finally decided to make it easier with rune sellers and easier captures, it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth that I had enough faith to purchase the $80 game instead of the regular priced because of the great time I had during BWE. The fact is we were lied to and the game at release was nothing like the one we tested during BWE. Maybe lied to is a little strong, but we were certainly misled.

This game was suppose to be something different but in reality it is the same as every other rpg and mmorpg out there. The only thing this game has going for it is it has no monthly fee. The only thing that will bring me and some of my friends to log back into the game and purchase future expansion is the UAS button.

Midnight Slayer · Jun 14, 2005, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

This leaves you with experience, which builds up your levels and gets you skill points. Which, oh wait, UAS, there goes the concept of skill points aswell. What do the missions give you? Exp, that is all. What is left then? Go through and get runes and weapons to customise your PvP char, oh wait, UAR.

Excellent point. The game was not designed for PVP only. It is still a character developing game and if UAS/R was implemented it would ruin it all. Who knows GW might even be accepeted by CAL. If you didnt take this as a joke then something is wrong with you.

Numa Pompilius · Jun 14, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

1) No, PvE'ers do not "lose out" with an UAS/UAR. How could they? The UAS/UAR only affects PvP characters. How does PvE'ers "lose out" or get "screwed over" by that?
The one thing is that it wont be a smart move to take your PvE build into PvP, it'll be smarter to make a special PvP build - in other words, exactly as it already is today.
I really don't see what you guys, Sekkira especially, are on about. Truly. How does everyone having access to UAS in PvP only mean that anyone gets screwed over or the game destroyed, when all it means is that everyone has the same chance?

2) No, PvP'ers do not get "screwed over" by PvE'ers at the moment. What it does mean, though, is that people solely interested in PvP have to play through the full PvE game at least three times, from scratch, if they want a reasonable chance to compete with all professions. This in turn leads to speedlevelling, grinding/farming, and much of the bad behaviour people complain about, because those PvP players don't want to play PvE and only want to complete the game and get the skills/runes they need as quickly as humanly possible. How can anyone expect someone doing the mission for the 15th time to help noobs, do bonus missions they've already done, or continue the mission once they got (or missed!) the skill/rune they've been looking for?

And that's why I, a PvE'er, support UAS/UAR - I don't want bored, frustrated, speedlevelling, farming, PvP'ers in my group when I go on missions.

(And could we PLEASE drop the frankly stupid argument that "everything is exactly as the developers wanted so suck it down".)

EinValentine · Jun 14, 2005, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I'm against Unlock All Anything buttons. What I am FOR however, is making skillpoints easier to aquire, and getting rid of this absolutely cretinous system of having Runes be accessed only by random drops.

There should be repeatable quests that give skillpoints, and the xp requirement should not keep ramping up. If you want a skill there should be specific things (besides going to grind the Fissure or farming somewhere) that you can do to attain one.

There should be a mission for every rune in the game. Do the mission and the reward is the rune. Missions for Superiors should obviously be more of a challenge, perhaps taking you into the more distant zones like Mineral Springs. The point is that if you make your goal that of unlocking X Rune, there should be a way to put effort toward that specific goal and be rewarded for it. Assigning runes solely at random is purest crap.

Do these things and I think gameplay would be enhanced for everyone. Yes, it involves a little more effort than just poking a button, but it doesn't invalidate the PvE experience and it does make unlocking whatever rune you need for your current build something that, with a little effort, you can guarantee happens.

Xight · Jun 14, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

1) No, PvE'ers do not "lose out" with an UAS/UAR. How could they? The UAS/UAR only affects PvP characters. How does PvE'ers "lose out" or get "screwed over" by that?
The one thing is that it wont be a smart move to take your PvE build into PvP, it'll be smarter to make a special PvP build - in other words, exactly as it already is today.
I really don't see what you guys, Sekkira especially, are on about. Truly. How does everyone having access to UAS in PvP only mean that anyone gets screwed over or the game destroyed, when all it means is that everyone has the same chance?

I believe the fear is that if they do create an UAS/UAR feature that what will happen is that the amount of people available in PVE will decline. With UAS/UAR people who are currently playing the pve content just to get runes/skills will noy play since there is no need to. PVP chars will also be not need to get runes from pve play so therefore the availability of these runes for people playing on pve is dimished from lack of people farming them. You thought it was hard putting together a group for ascension missions sometimes when there's not many people? Imagine if most of those people were gone since they don't 'need' to ascend for their skills anymore. UAS/UAR may give people a chance to play on level ground, but I think those are a few reasons why some people oppose UAS/UAR.

Don't get me wrong I liked this game halfway through lion's arch, but one of the only reasons I play after the game gets mind numbing boring is just to unlock some runes/skills for pvp.

Quote:

2) No, PvP'ers do not get "screwed over" by PvE'ers at the moment. What it does mean, though, is that people solely interested in PvP have to play through the full PvE game at least three times, from scratch, if they want a reasonable chance to compete with all professions. This in turn leads to speedlevelling, grinding/farming, and much of the bad behaviour people complain about, because those PvP players don't want to play PvE and only want to complete the game and get the skills/runes they need as quickly as humanly possible. How can anyone expect someone doing the mission for the 15th time to help noobs, do bonus missions they've already done, or continue the mission once they got (or missed!) the skill/rune they've been looking for?

Yes some people are jerks, but there's jerks in every game. Not all of those jerks are pvpers speedgrinding through pve for skills. Even if they make an UAS/UAR mode, there will ALWAYS be those jerks who quit after they get what they want, or take advantage of a group for their own means.

Quote:

And that's why I, a PvE'er, support UAS/UAR - I don't want bored, frustrated, speedlevelling, farming, PvP'ers in my group when I go on missions.

(And could we PLEASE drop the frankly stupid argument that "everything is exactly as the developers wanted so suck it down".)

I don't support UAS/UAR, but it would be fun if ANet creates a weekend UAS/UAR event from time to time to let everyone experience the option for it. They can monitor how the regular servers are doing vs pvp servers, and see if it will be worthwhile, or if it will kill pve mode. The game just came out, and they still have a lot of content to add via expansions etc. So why not just wait it out and see what they have instore for us for the future.

Kashrlyyk · Jun 14, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

What does UAR and UAS and the third thing mean?

Loviatar · Jun 14, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

What does UAR and UAS and the third thing mean?

unlock all (runes/ skills/upgrades)

Xight · Jun 14, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

What does UAR and UAS and the third thing mean?

Unlock All Skills/Unlock all Runes. The third thing I'm not sure what your meaning. I'm too lazy to scroll up at the momeny.

Creston · Jun 14, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThundrGod

This problem will sort itself out in time when more and more of the "It's great the way it is" crowd finishes the game and realizes they have to do it 3 more times to try out all their pvp options and the "pve only" crowd moves on to greener pastures.

You should HOPE that the PvE crowd doesn't move on, because then Anet won't be selling a whole lot of copies of that next expansion.

And without those expansions making money to pay for their servers, those servers will go down.

Creston

Kashrlyyk · Jun 14, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xight

Unlock All Skills/Unlock all Runes. The third thing I'm not sure what your meaning. I'm too lazy to scroll up at the momeny.

Thanks to you and Loviator!